Curse

Sophitia Leafblade · Jun 11, 2007, 06:45 PM // 18:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chicken Ftw

For your first point, you made two SEPARATE statements. The first used except. The second, did not and included "all other casters". Thus, contradiction.

true i suspose, it depends how u read it, its written as a generic statement. But still i stand by my opinion the average Caster in the average situation will out damage the average warrior.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chicken Ftw

Why should I "make up" a reason, when there's plenty of proof already in the thread? You've heard of Dragon Slashers, Evisc/Exec spikes, what more do you need? In addition to the fact that the warrior's damage without skills over time adds up as well.

I said a legit example - not one build abusing game mechanics that'd be completely useless outside of PvE. A legit build would be SF or Cripslash, one that works mostly everywhere.

I think your version of a legit build is a cookie cutter build, sorry but i dont do cookie cutter. I could say the same, i dont need to explain because others have but im making a point so i explain it, you dont have to agree but i explain my way of thinking.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chicken Ftw

because they know warriors' damage outclasses that of eles when used properly.

Because again, it seems mostly everyone but you is aware that warriors outdamage eles over time.

Yes a good warrior can outdamage a bad ele but a good Ele can outdamage a good warrior. If Warriors really do out damage Eles or Rits then why are the bosses that are considered real problems Casters?

No not everyone agrees, numerious others understand the damage Eles and other casters can actually do, feel free to keep ur opinion but just because u beleive it that doesnt make it necessary true. I play

Andisa Kalorn · Jun 11, 2007, 07:05 PM // 19:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sophitia Leafblade

If Warriors really do out damage Eles or Rits then why are the bosses that are considered real problems Casters?

Because henchies are stupid and ball up for aoe damage. Not because those bosses are inherently powerful. They're also very easy to shut down.

Acolyte of Balthazar is a fun one in hard mode, however.

explodemyheart · Jun 11, 2007, 07:18 PM // 19:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sophitia Leafblade

If Warriors really do out damage Eles or Rits then why are the bosses that are considered real problems Casters?

You might take note that ele bosses in prophecies really offer very little to worry about in terms of damage. Factions and nightfall bosses, however, have their damage doubled. Some warrior, dervish and assassin bosses hurt just as much as the ele and rit bosses that are a concern, the difference is that most of the ele and rit bosses deal aoe damage. This is compounded by using heroes and henchmen because they ball together and are slow to react to, say, a hit with searing flames.

To a single target, they really do damage comparable to that of some of the melee bosses and that's what this entire thread is really about, 1v1.

ensoriki · Jun 11, 2007, 07:23 PM // 19:23

Warriors are not stronger then eles (well in brute strength they are...eles use magic not strength)

Eles were made with the mind of doing more damage

DPS and a NUke are different

When I think of Nuke I think a large amount of damage, Dps means Damage per second High DPS means Wave after wave of hit.

In Raw damage the Ele is tronger, sure you can calculate overtime maybe the warrior is stronger then I'm not sure but I doubt it.

The problem with warriors is the melee aspect, and then theres Getting to that area. With water eles running rampant Deep freeze is gonna get a bunch of people.

Most of this warrior love is Prophecies Bias, because it was the only melee option way back when dinosaurs ruled Tokyo people think its better then a ele. A warrior takes damage and gives out ..decent damage but the Ele doesn't take it and puts out the damage to balance it. So why choose some1 who will die? The ele can be a blindbot, spiker,nuker,Snare, Utility,runner.
The warrior can

Try to go after a water ele and fail, try to spike but most people kite alot and don't say cripple because if Blind is so easily cured by the monks cripple is aswell, and just pressure, I like the ele options more.

I have a warrior but he seems so garbage to me.
Bring an all mesmer team vs all Warrior its easy to notice who wins
Bring an all sin vs all warrior, and these sins are not stupid, I think sin will win
But then again the Spell casters in general are going to win because of their advantage of range and shutdowns.

ShadowsRequiem · Jun 11, 2007, 07:23 PM // 19:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sophitia Leafblade

Yes a good warrior can outdamage a bad ele but a good Ele can outdamage a good warrior. If Warriors really do out damage Eles or Rits then why are the bosses that are considered real problems Casters?

No not everyone agrees, numerious others understand the damage Eles and other casters can actually do, feel free to keep ur opinion but just because u beleive it that doesnt make it necessary true. I play

hmmm well the boss part is really ignorant. You do understand that the bosses do 2x the normal dmg? not to mention the fast casts..... so duh a boss with ancestors rage will do over 200 dmg.

can your ele do 125 dmg + deepwound? over 225 dmg? thats with 500 health. I seriously doubt it, or people would just run eles in all pvp.

When you read a skill like meteor shower do you read it as OMFG! over 300 dmg! awesome!
or
Do you read it like this: oh 100+ dmg to stupid npcs that are too damn stupid to get out of the way. awesome...

Good ele out dmging a warrior? what do you think a good ele is? someone who will play against a subpar player who will stand in aoe? sounds like it.

Stormlord Alex · Jun 11, 2007, 07:30 PM // 19:30

Sophita, please stop digging that hole.

Chicken said a 'legit build'...

What build you you say? Oh, yeah. A 55 with SV. A build that abuses game mechanics (and certain quest rewards...) to farm dumbass AI in specific places.
A practical and viable build for general use? Hell no.
Legitimate example pl0x.

In seriousness, a SF ele *can* outdamage a warrior... in a PvE/AB situation, where your opponents are retarded enough to ball up and be flamed to death.
In actual competitive play (observer mode, much?), warriors are used as main damage dealers and eles aren't... care to explain why if 'good eles' can outdamage 'good warriors'?
Please, none of that 'clinging to the past' or 'cookie cutter mentality' shit, if you would be so kind.

And EDIT: Yes, En... lots of classes will beat warriors one on one. Warriors are meant to be easily shut down. It compensates for their ridiculous capacity for damage and disruption. If they could not only kill shit *and* be tough to stop, it'd be broken.

Ecklipze · Jun 11, 2007, 07:31 PM // 19:31

Question: Do Spellcasters have it too good?

Answer: No.

ensoriki · Jun 11, 2007, 07:50 PM // 19:50

Can some1 explain how in a team battle warriors and casters are even?
All casters can apply deep wound by going into the easy secondary
E/A, Deadly arts will give them the deep wound they seek.

And Casters with Deep wound makes the entire warrior gives 100 and Deep wound thing.

Warriors don't actually Hit 100 damage, They can do cumulative damage towards 100 damage but they don't do it out raw, with deep wound its neary 200 damage. However thats from building up adrenaline and such from before hand.

Now an ele at the start will start spiking/nuking now if there E/A they put up the hex warrior hits 50% then deep wound comes + the damage there almost dead.

And in a team battle, I'm pretty damn sure people bring conditions like blind, its kinda silly not to. Stopping a sin spike/warrior spike/derv spike/ranger/paragon spike Without the need of the monk waring out there energy simply just put up blind, sure the monk can heal it but they just missed an attack.

If warriors do such great damage in gvg and such then Eles should deal even greater, a Me/E should have good e-management and with fast casting deal a decent spike, more then enough to outmatch a warriors damage.

Think on 1 on 1 its spellcaster, think in team Its a smart spellcaster.

Eles aren't used as the main damage dealers, because people don't want them , they could pull it of easily they just don't want to. Most High guilds have been their since prophecies and are used to warrior use.

You wanna ask why people don't use certain things in gvg...

An Entire rit team still works but we don't use that everyday.

A full ele team can work aswell, stick a monk in their and it works.
People use what they use because they want it, because its FOTM,because they can.
People can use eles the just don't want too
If I replaced warriors with eles it won't matter.

Chicken Ftw · Jun 11, 2007, 07:51 PM // 19:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sophitia Leafblade

I think your version of a legit build is a cookie cutter build, sorry but i dont do cookie cutter.

Yes a good warrior can outdamage a bad ele but a good Ele can outdamage a good warrior. If Warriors really do out damage Eles or Rits then why are the bosses that are considered real problems Casters?

No not everyone agrees, numerious others understand the damage Eles and other casters can actually do, feel free to keep ur opinion but just because u beleive it that doesnt make it necessary true. I play

To me, whether a build is effective or not in most areas of PvE and PvP determines whether or not it's legit. "Cookie cutter" is just a term used by idiots who look down on those playing a certain build just because it's popular, effective and easy to use. I'm curious to what you run if you always avoid everything that could possibly be considered "cookie cutter".

We're arguing from two different perspectives anyway. From the sound of it, you play mostly PvE. Me, PvP. Two different ballgames mostly, although I still believe warrior is damage king in both. I'm too lazy to do the calculations though, and not feeling like arguing all day, so I'll leave this topic with both of us clinging to our beliefs. It's mostly a pointless debate anyway, since both classes are needed in good teams.

One last thing. Not sure if all of this topic still holds true with the addition of NF, but it's a good read regardless for any war v ele comparisons: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...d.php?t=113319 Yes it's been linked to before, but it's worth a second time imo.

Shendaar · Jun 11, 2007, 07:58 PM // 19:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by ensoriki

Warriors don't actually Hit 100 damage, They can do cumulative damage towards 100 damage but they don't do it out raw, with deep wound its neary 200 damage. However thats from building up adrenaline and such from before hand.

Yes they do. Learn to actually play a warrior with a decent build and then comment. As a monk, I would take any damage caster on me over a good warrior any day.

Orphan Anthem · Jun 11, 2007, 08:05 PM // 20:05

Well my guild plays balanced in gvg (rank 83 atm) and generally we find that its the casters that make the melee shine

ensoriki · Jun 11, 2007, 08:06 PM // 20:06

I'm not playing any Bad build, Maybe its because im an assassin but I have never had a warrior strike 100 damage on me unless it was in pve which is kinda...iffy anyways.
If they do that on spell casters then thats different.

TedTheDead · Jun 11, 2007, 08:09 PM // 20:09

When the fight first starts yet, but as energy levels start to diminish the guy with the biggest stick gets the cookies.

So to speak

pork soldier · Jun 11, 2007, 08:20 PM // 20:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by ensoriki

Warriors don't actually Hit 100 damage, They can do cumulative damage towards 100 damage but they don't do it out raw, with deep wound its neary 200 damage. However thats from building up adrenaline and such from before hand.

Oh wait, Shock + Frenzy + Eviscerate + Executioner's + Rush + Bull's strike. Oh, and you forgot Sever + Gash + Final Thrust, or Dragon Slash + Standing Slash.

Saying you have to deal 100+ damage with one skill is like saying you're allowed only one skill on your bar. It's about how well those skills work together, not the one 100+ damage skill. I'd rather have any damage caster pounding on me than a warrior any day.

Criminally Sane · Jun 11, 2007, 08:20 PM // 20:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by ensoriki

E/A, Deadly arts will give them the deep wound they seek.

Yes, because you really want to teleport right next to a warrior who could then unleash adrenaline into you, tearing you apart.

Quote:

Warriors don't actually Hit 100 damage,

Yes they do. Stop tanking, put 16 in your weapon attribute and bring decent skills.

Quote:

They can do cumulative damage towards 100 damage but they don't do it out raw, with deep wound its neary 200 damage. However thats from building up adrenaline and such from before hand.

Lol. Eviscerate alone usually hits for 100+, deep wound for another 100ish, followed by an Executioner's Strike for another hunk of HP. You seem to forget that the warrior is dealing decent damage to you without using skills, while he's building that adrenaline to spike you down with.

Quote:

Now an ele at the start will start spiking/nuking now if there E/A they put up the hex warrior hits 50% then deep wound comes + the damage there almost dead.

Almost isn't good enough, especially since good teams have those things called monks.

Quote:

And in a team battle, I'm pretty damn sure people bring conditions like blind, its kinda silly not to. Stopping a sin spike/warrior spike/derv spike/ranger/paragon spike Without the need of the monk waring out there energy simply just put up blind, sure the monk can heal it but they just missed an attack.

Oh no, one attack. News flash, warrior can simply build adren back in ~8s and spike you again. Not to mention one skill missing isn't that fatal, since warriors don't tend to spike alone. Also, you seem to forget that people bring conditions like daze and things like interrupts to destroy your casters as well.

Quote:

If warriors do such great damage in gvg and such then Eles should deal even greater, a Me/E should have good e-management and with fast casting deal a decent spike, more then enough to outmatch a warriors damage.

Should? Why? Because you think people will ball up for your AoE? Me/Es do deal decent spikes. It's just, warriors deal better ones. Not to mention the extra armor and DPS while not spiking helps.

Quote:

Think on 1 on 1 its spellcaster, think in team Its a smart spellcaster.

Think 1 on 1s don't matter, Guild Wars is a team game.

Quote:

Eles aren't used as the main damage dealers, because people don't want them , they could pull it of easily they just don't want to. Most High guilds have been their since prophecies and are used to warrior use.

Eles aren't used as main damage dealers because they're simply not as good at killing things as warriors. That's all there is to it.

Quote:

A full ele team can work aswell, stick a monk in their and it works.
People use what they use because they want it, because its FOTM,because they can.
People can use eles the just don't want too
If I replaced warriors with eles it won't matter.

Wow, I'm too busy laughing to type a reply to that one.

I Mean I · Jun 11, 2007, 08:24 PM // 20:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miral

it isn't, people just play it that way because warriors are so easy to master. A fire elementalist kills far better than a warrior can ever hope to. the thing with warriors isn't that they are killing machines, but that they can survive major attacks without needing defensive skills while they do decent damage.

I lol'd
Warriors easy to master?Ever played high level gvg ?

...

ensoriki · Jun 11, 2007, 08:30 PM // 20:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Criminally Sane

Yes, because you really want to teleport right next to a warrior who could then unleash adrenaline into you, tearing you apart.

Or it could be opportune depends on the situation

Quote:

Yes they do. Stop tanking, put 16 in your weapon attribute and bring decent skills.

I don't tank I'm not interested in being a brick, however I don't play warriors enough to care, im on my assassin enjoying myself. (not saying Warriors aren't fun, there not me)

Quote:

Lol. Eviscerate alone usually hits for 100+, deep wound for another 100ish, followed by an Executioner's Strike for another hunk of HP. You seem to forget that the warrior is dealing decent damage to you without using skills, while he's building that adrenaline to spike you down with

I've never seen this happen to me, Im usually on my sin I've seen eviscerate warriors, I've asked weapon masterys its usually 15, if you need 16 in that attribute I don't want to partake, thats a large sum of health lost using that Superior rune.

Quote:

Almost isn't good enough, especially since good teams have those things called monks

.
Didn't you say people don't fight alone and that Monks are everywhere? So how does that ele situation differ for a warrior if Monks are everywhere. And ALmost, was in terms that Kills aren't certain so I didn't want to put guaranteed.

Quote:

Oh no, one attack. News flash, warrior can simply build adren back in ~8s and spike you again. Not to mention one skill missing isn't that fatal, since warriors don't tend to spike alone. Also, you seem to forget that people bring conditions like daze and things like interrupts to destroy your casters as well.

If they hit. Not spiking alone is smart, but can't every class basically do that?

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Should? Why? Because you think people will ball up for your AoE? Me/Es do deal decent spikes. It's just, warriors deal better ones. Not to mention the extra armor and DPS while not spiking helps

.
Point taken.

Quote:

Think 1 on 1s don't matter, Guild Wars is a team game.

its for comparative reasons.

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Eles aren't used as main damage dealers because they're simply not as good at killing things as warriors. That's all there is to it.

That I will disagree with, because I could say in theory warriors can't kill like sins can, but sins can be disabled if a chain is screwed. So I'll down myself down to saying there even.

Quote:

Wow, I'm too busy laughing to type a reply to that one.

Take some Tums, they taste kinda good.

Oh wait, Shock + Frenzy + Eviscerate + Executioner's + Rush + Bull's strike. Oh, and you forgot Sever + Gash + Final Thrust, or Dragon Slash + Standing Slash.

Saying you have to deal 100+ damage with one skill is like saying you're allowed only one skill on your bar. It's about how well those skills work together, not the one 100+ damage skill. I'd rather have any damage caster pounding on me than a warrior any day.

Thats if all of that hits....but if an entire sin combo hit whats the difference?
You'd enjoy having deadly arts spike on you? I wouldn't that pisses me off. I enjoy warrior coming to me, there not much of a threat to me, Maybe I'm wrong but when I was just a wee assassin I asked a guild mate warrior if I could test a build on him as I wanted to see high damage output, so he came we kinda shuffled around like a cowboy video seeing who would come closer first, I turned around ran away and then hit dash and charged at him executing a combo, He was rather impressed we did this again with his evasion stance on, but I had anti-block on anyways so it didn't matter. Anyways he tested a build on me and I lol'd It was just boring I thought of times while he was building that adrenaline for that spike where I could've killed an ele by now (without blind). Then he spiked me, I was almost dead, we did this again with my ele not using Blind skills and the ele died,

But an ele with blind laughs at a warrior, and when we held a inside scrimmage with the guild to tests ourselves among each other and get fimilar with each other, 1 side chose its teammates other chose theirs we went at each other warriors came after me as I tried to capture the flag, I saw an opportunity to kill the mesmer who wasn't paying attention shadow stepped and killed (if she was looking It would've failed), Aod'd back picked up the flag and placed it. Sure it may seem like a okay well thats a sin not a spell caster , I do the same with D arts and win.

Anyways thanks for the answers, I guess I'll try a pvp warrior and see the 100+DW thing.

Shendaar · Jun 11, 2007, 08:56 PM // 20:56

You make it sound like Caster spikes are unstoppable and warriors always miss. I can have 3 SF eles on me for all I care ... Spirit bond will keep me up. It takes a lot more effort to keep the warriors at bay.

ensoriki · Jun 11, 2007, 08:57 PM // 20:57

That means I dont Main with a warrior, I main with my sin. When I play a warrior I notice the spellcasters around me and how they suddenly became even more annoying then when playing my sin.
_______
I make it sound like 1 is unstoppable?
Then I apologize
It should come out that casters have more advantages over melee.

The ease of blind, harder to get dazed,distanced fighting (rangers/paragons also have this but without some of the other benefits) Easy Melee/range shutdowns.

Keeping the warriors at bay are more trouble...interesting because the only time I die from a warrior is when they are plentiful and the monk is down. But doesn't that go for anything? If the Sin/paragon/ranger/necro/every class is plentiful....

makosi · Jun 11, 2007, 09:02 PM // 21:02

Since this game is Build Wars, it is your Build that determines victory whether caster or otherwise.

If I am an Ineptitude Mesmer with Ineptitude, Clumsiness, Signet of Clumsiness and so on, I am going to defeat the non-caster. If I am a Migraine Mesmer then the non-caster will beat me down (because I can't use Distortion these days). If a caster is aware of what he/she is about to face, they can customize a build that will take down the enemy very efficiently with the right skills. However, for those without crystal balls, casters are very vulnerable to both (a) other casters and (b) non-casters. Non-casters have the inherent bonus of additional armour.

That's part of the balance.

My anti-melee necro, anti-caster mesmer and snare eles have very conditonal skills that require a condition to be present for them to be effective. Warriors/Rangers/Paragons/Assassins/Dervishes/Rangers deal indiscriminate damage regardless of their specific purposes.